I would have to agree with you to some extent. There's nothing more
frustrating than printing off clues and then finding out, after you've gone and tried
to find the box, that it had been confirmed missing. I feel as though the
owners of boxes should say whether the box is reported or confirmed missing.

I'm not sure if you understand the difference, so here goes: if a box is
reported missing, and the box planter has not (or can not) go out and see if it is
still in place, then I feel as though the box planter should write on the
clues that it is "reported but not confirmed missing". That way, it is up to the
finder whether they want to go out and look for it. If a box is confirmed
missing by the planter, then I feel as though the box planter should write on
the clues that the box is confirmed missing. That way, no one will go out to
look for the box because it is confirmed.

I have a few boxes that are reported but not confirmed missing. One of the
boxes is in VA and I will not be going out there anytime soon to check on it.
THe other is here in CT, but I'm in grad school right now (an action research
class none the less!) and have NO time to drive an hour and 15 minutes to
check on one box. I have however changed the clues to state that they are
reported but not confirmed missing.

I feel as though it is the planter's responsibility to update the clues when
notified. If a planter is no longer active, then I feel as though the box
should be adopted by someone who knows where the box is and can confirm whether
it is missing.

I feel for ya! Happy Hunting, whatever you decide!

just my 1 1/2 cents (that's all I can afford after paying almost $3000 for
summer grad courses!)....
Music Woman
in CT


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cpascott wrote:Got another one for your all.

For our trip to Philly this weekend, we thought we might find out if
any letterboxes were possible. One in town, the Eastern State
Peniteniary box seemed easy enough as we're hoping to visit the
Peniteniary while we're there.

The Box was hidden on July 16, 2001 according to the clue which is
linked to from the LbNA database.

I posted about it on the LbMA board. Someone came back to say it had
been missing for over a year.

Good information, of course. The clue sheet hadn't been updated.
Seems to me that if it was, in fact, confirmed missing, someone
should state so in the clue so people don't go blindly hunting for
something that isn't there. Is that standard protocol?

That led me to another thought/question -- is there any protocol to
remove confirmed missing boxes from the database? I think if not,
the database could be easily filled with a bunch of phantom boxes in
a few years ... certainly harming the interest in this hobby.

A search for this topic on these boards was unsuccessful. Shall we
discuss now?

Thanks again!




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I agree that the database should be updated to remove the missing boxes. I notified one planter that her box was missing but did not get a reply back. I can understand not removing it immediately but after confirmation by the planter hat is is indeed gone, it should be noted in the database and then removed after a specified time period. And thanks for the headsup on the Philly Easy. Pen. box- we are going to Philly in a few weeks and that was on our list.
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--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott"
wrote:
>
> Good information, of course. The clue sheet hadn't been updated.
> Seems to me that if it was, in fact, confirmed missing, someone
> should state so in the clue so people don't go blindly hunting for
> something that isn't there. Is that standard protocol?

They listed that it's missing on their website, if that helps...

I only live 10 minutes away from it, so it wasn't such a
disappointment when I saw it missing, only to return home and THEN
read the website!

Fleur de Lis
http://fleurdelislb.blogspot.com

You must be looking at another website than I. Perhaps they are
published twice?

The page the LbNA database links to is below:
http://www.geocities.com/martianmaggot_K9/east_state.html

Doesn't say "missing" anywhere there. Ah, I see, if you change the
URL to go to the main website, it's listed there. Well, see the LbNA
database doesn't link to that, and there is no link on the clue page
itself (nor does the clue page say missing).

But, anyway, the question was more about removing missing boxes from
the database than figuring out the story with this particular box.

Thanks for the additional info., though.

CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "fleurdelislb"
wrote:
>
>
> They listed that it's missing on their website, if that helps...
>
> I only live 10 minutes away from it, so it wasn't such a
> disappointment when I saw it missing, only to return home and THEN
> read the website!
>
> Fleur de Lis
> http://fleurdelislb.blogspot.com

>
> I posted about it on the LbMA board. Someone came back to say it
had
> been missing for over a year.
>
> Good information, of course.

Not necessarily, we have recieved numerous reports that a specific
letterbox is missing, but when we go to verify it's condition we
find it in place. While we checked and rechecked our clues, it seems
as though those looking for the letterbox are not reading the clues
completely. We generally post the info on the clue sheet in any case
and have had folks find that letterbox right after someone else has
informed us that it was missing.


>
> That led me to another thought/question -- is there any protocol
to
> remove confirmed missing boxes from the database? I think if not,
> the database could be easily filled with a bunch of phantom boxes
in
> a few years ... certainly harming the interest in this hobby.

That might be rather presumptuous for the above reason. Again we
have one letterbox in a series that has rather obscure clues that is
only found by one in five letterboxers. What if the next 20 can't
locate it? Not finding letterboxes is part of the hobby. This could
be from placer error or finder error. There are some letterboxes
that may require multiple attempts, but when you are finally
successful how sweet it is.

Don

I imagine that a big part of the problem is that there are those who
planted letterboxes that have either moved, changed e-mail, or become
disinterested in the sport.

One person in my area who has planted over a dozen letterboxes has
droppped from the scene. I haven't checked on the letterboxes but
I've seen reports that at least one has dissapeared and one was moved
by someone else. These boxes are on the regular list and not on the
basement database.


What should we do when it seems the placer is no longer active?

Bob2

Well well
I have found boxes that have been gone for months
before.If they took off all the boxes that people said
were missing (because they couldn't find them) there
wouldn't be any boxes left. I looked for the Rhode
Island Coin Letterbox 8 times. I thought it was
missing. The person that put it out there said it was
right where he left it. I WAS READING THE CLUES WRONG.
So be careful before you say a box is missing.
Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. It is
not about the getting the letterbox it is about the
adventure.




=====
The Maplines

Mary & Paul

P 28 F 338 X 112 HH 31 E2 V2

The last thing I think about is the box not being there...the first thing I think about is that I stink at this and can't find the damn thing. More and more lately it's the later of the 2 choices...ever since we started going for some more difficult boxes....hmmmm, wonder why?

I'm with you guys,

Seth from dynamic Duo


Mary & Paul The Map Lines wrote:
Well well
I have found boxes that have been gone for months
before.If they took off all the boxes that people said
were missing (because they couldn't find them) there
wouldn't be any boxes left. I looked for the Rhode
Island Coin Letterbox 8 times. I thought it was
missing. The person that put it out there said it was
right where he left it. I WAS READING THE CLUES WRONG.
So be careful before you say a box is missing.
Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. It is
not about the getting the letterbox it is about the
adventure.




=====
The Maplines

Mary & Paul

P 28 F 338 X 112 HH 31 E2 V2

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--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
wrote:
> >
> > I posted about it on the LbMA board. Someone came back to say
it
> had
> > been missing for over a year.
> >
> > Good information, of course.
>
> Not necessarily, we have recieved numerous reports that a specific
> letterbox is missing, but when we go to verify it's condition we
> find it in place. While we checked and rechecked our clues, it
seems
> as though those looking for the letterbox are not reading the
clues
> completely. We generally post the info on the clue sheet in any
case
> and have had folks find that letterbox right after someone else
has
> informed us that it was missing.
>
> Don

I would have to agree with Don. I have frequent reports about boxes
being missing, only to hear later from an individual who found it,
or check on it to find it is still securely in its hiding spot.

There have been a few times in looking for a box, I search and
search and even rewalk the clues to come up empty-handed. On
another day, the clues untwist differently and I find the box,
realizing I was in the completely wrong spot, or didn't go quite far
enough up the trail or thought "that" was the three-foot stump the
clues referred to...

I generally do not make notations about missing boxes on my clues
unless either I or somebody who has previously found the box (i.e.
knows for sure where the spot is), has confirmed it is not there.
Even then, I have had a couple surface, one having been rehid in the
wrong spot a few feet up the trail, and the other being found
(hidden) in a completely different part of the park. If I am unable
to check a box after receiving a few "missing" reports, I may make a
note about the uncertainty of the box, but would not remove it or
note that it is "missing."

As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with most
sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
box.

SpringChick

Spring Chick wrote:

> As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with most
> sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
> still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
> to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
> waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
> uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
> box.

Spring Chick beat me to it... The question is are you doing this for the excitement of the hunt or the thrill of victory?

If you are doing it for the thrill of victory, stick with straightforward clues hidden in remote areas as those will have the best chance of being left undisturbed and are easiest to find.

If for the excitement of the hunt, go for a box that has some uncertainty.

Letterboxing is a diverse hobby that can appeal to all levels and types of players. I realize that hobbies evolve over time but let's not stunt the hobby of letterboxing by throttling it with limitations.

--
___________________________________
California Bear

So many people all they want is numbers. It is about
the adventure not how many letterboxes you can get. I
just got lost in the woods because I didn't follow the
clues back to my car right. I know my sense of
direction and knew I was going the wrong way. It was
madding but I'm home and don't worry about it.

-
-- seth mandeville wrote:

---------------------------------
The last thing I think about is the box not being
there...the first thing I think about is that I stink
at this and can't find the damn thing. More and more
lately it's the later of the 2 choices...ever since we
started going for some more difficult boxes....hmmmm,
wonder why?

I'm with you guys,

Seth from dynamic Duo


Mary & Paul The Map Lines
wrote:
Well well
I have found boxes that have been gone for months
before.If they took off all the boxes that people said
were missing (because they couldn't find them) there
wouldn't be any boxes left. I looked for the Rhode
Island Coin Letterbox 8 times. I thought it was
missing. The person that put it out there said it was
right where he left it. I WAS READING THE CLUES WRONG.
So be careful before you say a box is missing.
Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. It is
not about the getting the letterbox it is about the
adventure.




=====
The Maplines

Mary & Paul

P 28 F 338 X 112 HH 31 E2 V2

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=====
The Maplines

Mary & Paul

P 28 F 338 X 112 HH 31 E2 V2

This weekend I had an experience where I couldn't find two boxes- I
emailed the people who placed them first & posted here second & got
responses. One box was confirmed in place so I know that I was just
WRONG & will go back & search again. The second box, I confirmed
that I was in the correct spot- it was an obvious spot & the box is
usually obvious- & I believe it was missing (although it's not been
confirmed by someone that's found it before). I'll still look for
it again, but at least I know that I was in the right spot, &
someone found that box in February.

If we all just communicate with each other, we can try to keep track
of the boxes. It would be KIND of us to update our clues when we
think a box is missing & it would be KIND of us to check on a box
for someone else when a box is presumed missing. Other than that,
what else can we do?

Lynnie from The Family

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "SpringChick"
wrote:
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I posted about it on the LbMA board. Someone came back to say
> it
> > had
> > > been missing for over a year.
> > >
> > > Good information, of course.
> >
> > Not necessarily, we have recieved numerous reports that a
specific
> > letterbox is missing, but when we go to verify it's condition we
> > find it in place. While we checked and rechecked our clues, it
> seems
> > as though those looking for the letterbox are not reading the
> clues
> > completely. We generally post the info on the clue sheet in any
> case
> > and have had folks find that letterbox right after someone else
> has
> > informed us that it was missing.
> >
> > Don
>
> I would have to agree with Don. I have frequent reports about
boxes
> being missing, only to hear later from an individual who found it,
> or check on it to find it is still securely in its hiding spot.
>
> There have been a few times in looking for a box, I search and
> search and even rewalk the clues to come up empty-handed. On
> another day, the clues untwist differently and I find the box,
> realizing I was in the completely wrong spot, or didn't go quite
far
> enough up the trail or thought "that" was the three-foot stump the
> clues referred to...
>
> I generally do not make notations about missing boxes on my clues
> unless either I or somebody who has previously found the box (i.e.
> knows for sure where the spot is), has confirmed it is not there.
> Even then, I have had a couple surface, one having been rehid in
the
> wrong spot a few feet up the trail, and the other being found
> (hidden) in a completely different part of the park. If I am
unable
> to check a box after receiving a few "missing" reports, I may make
a
> note about the uncertainty of the box, but would not remove it or
> note that it is "missing."
>
> As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with
most
> sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
> still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
> to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
> waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
> uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
> box.
>
> SpringChick

Hey, I'm all for the adventure, but perhaps different from others,
I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find a
letterbox relates to misreading the clues or some other hunter error.

It hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine if 9 times out of 10
you searched for boxes you couldn't find them? My guess is that it
would discourage you from continuing in this hobby. That's all I'm
saying. If a box is reported as missing, the placer should (within a
reasonable period of time, of course) attempt to confirm that. If it
is, in fact, missing, replace it or remove the clues. The more
people that report it as missing, the more priority the placer should
have to confirming whether the box still exists or not.

If a placer cannot confirm because they live too far away, don't have
time, or aren't in the hobby anymore, then a "caretaker" or adoptive
owner should take a look. That's all. I firmly feel that if the
database starts filling up with ghost boxes -- boxes that used to be
there but aren't anymore -- as either reported by lots of independent
letterboxers or by the placer themselves, then what value is the
database? Using Eastern State Peniteniary as an example, the placer
stated the box might be missing 11 months ago, but no confirmation or
update has been received since. That notice, by the way, was not
part of the page that the database links to. If 5 years passes and
that box is still listed and is still "presumed missing" as of
8/1/2003, then all it's done is direct a bunch of letterboxers to
nothing. They may have fun touring the Peniteniary but it sure will
be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.

I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that are MIA but not confirmed
missing. Repeat -- I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that
someone couldn't find simply because they couldn't find it. I am
saying that clues be removed for boxes the placer confirms is no
longer there or, in the event that the placer never responds over a
long period of time (like a year) have a system in place to mark the
box so that other hunters are aware that the liklihood of it not
being there is known.

Take this fictitous example:

I place the "Nobody Home" box. Some non-letterboxer discovers it and
steals it. A letterboxer searches for it but can't find it. They e-
mail me, but I've stopped letterboxing, so I don't respond. Four
more letterboxers can't find it ('cause it isn't there). They e-mail
me, but I don't respond. The clues remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

Situation two. Same as above, except I confirm that the box is, in
fact, missing. The clues, however, remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. I seek only to offer ideas,
conversation, and recommendations to enhance this hobby, not detract
from it. Your opinions are respected.

Incidentially, although I'm new to this hobby, I have found every box
I've searched for so far.

Best regards,
CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, californiabear@c... wrote:
> Spring Chick wrote:
>
> > As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with
most
> > sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
> > still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
> > to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
> > waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
> > uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
> > box.
>
> Spring Chick beat me to it... The question is are you doing this
for the excitement of the hunt or the thrill of victory?
>
> If you are doing it for the thrill of victory, stick with
straightforward clues hidden in remote areas as those will have the
best chance of being left undisturbed and are easiest to find.
>
> If for the excitement of the hunt, go for a box that has some
uncertainty.
>
> Letterboxing is a diverse hobby that can appeal to all levels and
types of players. I realize that hobbies evolve over time but let's
not stunt the hobby of letterboxing by throttling it with limitations.
>
> --
> ___________________________________
> California Bear

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott" wrote:
> I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
> letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
> the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find a
> letterbox relates to misreading the clues or some other hunter error.

I would not advise coming up to Maine anytime to box soon. Though some boxes are easy
to find, there are many that I have hunted for at least 5-10 times and come up empty
handed. Most times it is a clear case of not enough coffee, sleep or food. When I am
relaxed and thinking about just my surroundings, and not too much about the clue - then
it hits me like a bolt of lightning - and then you have the "Eureka moment" that many have
written about.

Sometimes it is a simple as sight-recognition. It isn't that you're stupid or that the clue is
too difficult, just that certain people who place letterboxes have certain styles. once you've
done some of those more challenging boxes, then you can pretty much consider yourself
ready for anything!!

phyto

Well said, Scott!!


cpascott wrote:
Hey, I'm all for the adventure, but perhaps different from others,
I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find a
letterbox relates to misreading the clues or some other hunter error.

It hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine if 9 times out of 10
you searched for boxes you couldn't find them? My guess is that it
would discourage you from continuing in this hobby. That's all I'm
saying. If a box is reported as missing, the placer should (within a
reasonable period of time, of course) attempt to confirm that. If it
is, in fact, missing, replace it or remove the clues. The more
people that report it as missing, the more priority the placer should
have to confirming whether the box still exists or not.

If a placer cannot confirm because they live too far away, don't have
time, or aren't in the hobby anymore, then a "caretaker" or adoptive
owner should take a look. That's all. I firmly feel that if the
database starts filling up with ghost boxes -- boxes that used to be
there but aren't anymore -- as either reported by lots of independent
letterboxers or by the placer themselves, then what value is the
database? Using Eastern State Peniteniary as an example, the placer
stated the box might be missing 11 months ago, but no confirmation or
update has been received since. That notice, by the way, was not
part of the page that the database links to. If 5 years passes and
that box is still listed and is still "presumed missing" as of
8/1/2003, then all it's done is direct a bunch of letterboxers to
nothing. They may have fun touring the Peniteniary but it sure will
be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.

I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that are MIA but not confirmed
missing. Repeat -- I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that
someone couldn't find simply because they couldn't find it. I am
saying that clues be removed for boxes the placer confirms is no
longer there or, in the event that the placer never responds over a
long period of time (like a year) have a system in place to mark the
box so that other hunters are aware that the liklihood of it not
being there is known.

Take this fictitous example:

I place the "Nobody Home" box. Some non-letterboxer discovers it and
steals it. A letterboxer searches for it but can't find it. They e-
mail me, but I've stopped letterboxing, so I don't respond. Four
more letterboxers can't find it ('cause it isn't there). They e-mail
me, but I don't respond. The clues remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

Situation two. Same as above, except I confirm that the box is, in
fact, missing. The clues, however, remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. I seek only to offer ideas,
conversation, and recommendations to enhance this hobby, not detract
from it. Your opinions are respected.

Incidentially, although I'm new to this hobby, I have found every box
I've searched for so far.

Best regards,
CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, californiabear@c... wrote:
> Spring Chick wrote:
>
> > As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with
most
> > sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
> > still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
> > to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
> > waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
> > uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
> > box.
>
> Spring Chick beat me to it... The question is are you doing this
for the excitement of the hunt or the thrill of victory?
>
> If you are doing it for the thrill of victory, stick with
straightforward clues hidden in remote areas as those will have the
best chance of being left undisturbed and are easiest to find.
>
> If for the excitement of the hunt, go for a box that has some
uncertainty.
>
> Letterboxing is a diverse hobby that can appeal to all levels and
types of players. I realize that hobbies evolve over time but let's
not stunt the hobby of letterboxing by throttling it with limitations.
>
> --
> ___________________________________
> California Bear


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CPAScott wrote:
> Incidentially, although I'm new to this hobby, I have found every box
> I've searched for so far.

Looks like we are doing a good job of policing the lost boxes then. ;)

I, for one, update the clues for a page any time I get a confirmed finding. That way, for those who are worried about wasting time on a possibly missing box, they can see that it has been found and how long ago it was found.

I understand the frustration of looking for a box that may be gone and not finding it, albeit vicariously through my wife. She has little patience for spending a long time looking for a box and is very frustrated if she can't find it. I tend to do most of letterboxing alone for that reason. ;)

--
___________________________________
California Bear

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Mary & Paul The Map Lines
wrote:
> So many people all they want is numbers. It is about
> the adventure not how many letterboxes you can get. I
> just got lost in the woods because I didn't follow the
> clues back to my car right. I know my sense of
> direction and knew I was going the wrong way. It was
> madding but I'm home and don't worry about it.
>
> -
,
Are you sure you weren't with me on Monday. I did the EXACT
thing. I don't care about the numbers either. I can't tell you how
many I've found, and it's probably not more than 20. Once I get
more, I certainly won't know. Heck, I have to stop and think when
someone asks how old I am. The adventure, and the solving of the
clues, being outdoors.... is what I'm up for.

manda

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott"
wrote:
> It hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine if 9 times out of 10
> you searched for boxes you couldn't find them? My guess is that it
> would discourage you from continuing in this hobby.

Ask Irene - I don't think her odds are *that* bad, but she always
jokes that she can't ever find boxes! And she's still very much into
the hobby!

> I firmly feel that if the
> database starts filling up with ghost boxes -- boxes that used to
be
> there but aren't anymore -- as either reported by lots of
independent
> letterboxers or by the placer themselves, then what value is the
> database?

To get people outside? To spend quality time together away from the
TV? To enjoy new places and sights and people? Just an alternate
view...

> Using Eastern State Peniteniary as an example, the placer
> stated the box might be missing 11 months ago, but no confirmation
or
> update has been received since. That notice, by the way, was not
> part of the page that the database links to. If 5 years passes and
> that box is still listed and is still "presumed missing" as of
> 8/1/2003, then all it's done is direct a bunch of letterboxers to
> nothing. They may have fun touring the Peniteniary but it sure
will
> be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.

As I said on the LBMA site, not finding the ESP box wasn't a hardship
since I live so close, but it did teach me to do additional research
before setting out. If you do go there, you'll understand that it
just can't possibly be there, even though it is "unconfirmed". No,
the placers didn't actually write that its reported missing their
LBNA clue page, but that's why it's always a good idea to do a bit of
research before heading out.

My $.02 - it's always nice to say that folks should/would/could do
this/that/the other thing, but there will never be any rules for this
hobby. People will do what they want to do, sometimes respecting
others, and sometimes without others in mind. If you allow the hobby
to be about more than just finding the box, it becomes much more
rewarding!

Fleur de Lis
http://fleurdelislb.blogspot.com

HA! Finding boxes, what the heck is that!! LOL!!! I have lamenting my poorly named team "Hikers & Hounds" which has dwindled to one hiker and one hound. I was thinking of taking a page from "She Who Plants" book and rename myself "She Who Hunts..In Vain". Ha! Thanks for the guffaw Katherine! Actually, my percentage is a little bit better but not by much. I still can't find a few Team Kelly or Muk-Luk boxes and almost didn't find one of the Mercer Hunt boxes. Dude and I just enjoy the woods and each other and call it a great day anyway. By the way, if I ever report to any of you that I went looking and your box is missing, laugh out load and delete my email. I am sure it's there safe and sound.

Irene - H&H (yeah, I'm keeping the name 'cause I really like the stamp)

fleurdelislb wrote:
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott"
wrote:
> It hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine if 9 times out of 10
> you searched for boxes you couldn't find them? My guess is that it
> would discourage you from continuing in this hobby.

Ask Irene - I don't think her odds are *that* bad, but she always
jokes that she can't ever find boxes! And she's still very much into
the hobby!

> I firmly feel that if the
> database starts filling up with ghost boxes -- boxes that used to
be
> there but aren't anymore -- as either reported by lots of
independent
> letterboxers or by the placer themselves, then what value is the
> database?

To get people outside? To spend quality time together away from the
TV? To enjoy new places and sights and people? Just an alternate
view...

> Using Eastern State Peniteniary as an example, the placer
> stated the box might be missing 11 months ago, but no confirmation
or
> update has been received since. That notice, by the way, was not
> part of the page that the database links to. If 5 years passes and
> that box is still listed and is still "presumed missing" as of
> 8/1/2003, then all it's done is direct a bunch of letterboxers to
> nothing. They may have fun touring the Peniteniary but it sure
will
> be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.

As I said on the LBMA site, not finding the ESP box wasn't a hardship
since I live so close, but it did teach me to do additional research
before setting out. If you do go there, you'll understand that it
just can't possibly be there, even though it is "unconfirmed". No,
the placers didn't actually write that its reported missing their
LBNA clue page, but that's why it's always a good idea to do a bit of
research before heading out.

My $.02 - it's always nice to say that folks should/would/could do
this/that/the other thing, but there will never be any rules for this
hobby. People will do what they want to do, sometimes respecting
others, and sometimes without others in mind. If you allow the hobby
to be about more than just finding the box, it becomes much more
rewarding!

Fleur de Lis
http://fleurdelislb.blogspot.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Irene - H&H wrote:

> I have lamenting my poorly named team "Hikers & Hounds" which has
> dwindled to one hiker and one hound.

Know the feeling. I started with three (myself, wife and son) and am now down to one. The only reason I carry their stamps in my box anymore is to keep mine from rattling around in all that empty space.

--
___________________________________
California Bear

I hear that! That is why our group name is the unlucky letterboxers!!!for a
while there we were 2 found 7 unfound out of 24 attempts! The first landing
boxes STILL allude us. even though it's almost been a year since we started
looking!
Kerri
Lone Pony
HA! Finding boxes, what the heck is that!! LOL!!! I have lamenting my
poorly named team "Hikers & Hounds" which has dwindled to one hiker and one
hound. I was thinking of taking a page from "She Who Plants" book and rename
myself "She Who Hunts..In Vain". Ha! Thanks for the guffaw Katherine!
Actually, my percentage is a little bit better but not by much. I still
can't find a few Team Kelly or Muk-Luk boxes and almost didn't find one of
the Mercer Hunt boxes. Dude and I just enjoy the woods and each other and
call it a great day anyway. By the way, if I ever report to any of you that
I went looking and your box is missing, laugh out load and delete my email.
I am sure it's there safe and sound.

Irene - H&H (yeah, I'm keeping the name 'cause I really like the stamp)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your points are valid and present a real concern. There was indeed a big shake-up of the database last year. It represented a lot of work, but it was necessary to weed out the boxes where 'contact the placer' just didn't work.
Diane and I printed off a lot of the old clues in New England beforehand (and many still reside in the basement), and we've taken up going to some of these boxes for the challenge of it, but we have no expectation of the boxes being there. Many of them still are, by the way.
But to return to the topic - The database was revamped so that the placer can now take charge of editting his/her own box clues themselves. I understand it used to be otherwise. We've recently entered a time where placers have more responsibility, and we'll see how we do. Could be good, could be not so good, but so far it seems better.

Dave
The von der Insels
P10 F206 X113 H8 E3
----- Original Message -----
From: cpascott
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:22 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Another question - missing boxes in the database


Hey, I'm all for the adventure, but perhaps different from others,
I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find a
letterbox relates to misreading the clues or some other hunter error.

It hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine if 9 times out of 10
you searched for boxes you couldn't find them? My guess is that it
would discourage you from continuing in this hobby. That's all I'm
saying. If a box is reported as missing, the placer should (within a
reasonable period of time, of course) attempt to confirm that. If it
is, in fact, missing, replace it or remove the clues. The more
people that report it as missing, the more priority the placer should
have to confirming whether the box still exists or not.

If a placer cannot confirm because they live too far away, don't have
time, or aren't in the hobby anymore, then a "caretaker" or adoptive
owner should take a look. That's all. I firmly feel that if the
database starts filling up with ghost boxes -- boxes that used to be
there but aren't anymore -- as either reported by lots of independent
letterboxers or by the placer themselves, then what value is the
database? Using Eastern State Peniteniary as an example, the placer
stated the box might be missing 11 months ago, but no confirmation or
update has been received since. That notice, by the way, was not
part of the page that the database links to. If 5 years passes and
that box is still listed and is still "presumed missing" as of
8/1/2003, then all it's done is direct a bunch of letterboxers to
nothing. They may have fun touring the Peniteniary but it sure will
be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.

I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that are MIA but not confirmed
missing. Repeat -- I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that
someone couldn't find simply because they couldn't find it. I am
saying that clues be removed for boxes the placer confirms is no
longer there or, in the event that the placer never responds over a
long period of time (like a year) have a system in place to mark the
box so that other hunters are aware that the liklihood of it not
being there is known.

Take this fictitous example:

I place the "Nobody Home" box. Some non-letterboxer discovers it and
steals it. A letterboxer searches for it but can't find it. They e-
mail me, but I've stopped letterboxing, so I don't respond. Four
more letterboxers can't find it ('cause it isn't there). They e-mail
me, but I don't respond. The clues remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

Situation two. Same as above, except I confirm that the box is, in
fact, missing. The clues, however, remain in the LbNA database. Is
this a problem?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. I seek only to offer ideas,
conversation, and recommendations to enhance this hobby, not detract
from it. Your opinions are respected.

Incidentially, although I'm new to this hobby, I have found every box
I've searched for so far.

Best regards,
CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, californiabear@c... wrote:
> Spring Chick wrote:
>
> > As Don said -- missing boxes are part of the game, just as with
most
> > sports -- you aren't always going to win, but hopefully you will
> > still have enjoyed playing. You can always e-mail the place prior
> > to looking for a box to verify its status if having the prize
> > waiting at the end of the trail is the prime concern. If they are
> > uncertain as to the status or don't respond, look for a different
> > box.
>
> Spring Chick beat me to it... The question is are you doing this
for the excitement of the hunt or the thrill of victory?
>
> If you are doing it for the thrill of victory, stick with
straightforward clues hidden in remote areas as those will have the
best chance of being left undisturbed and are easiest to find.
>
> If for the excitement of the hunt, go for a box that has some
uncertainty.
>
> Letterboxing is a diverse hobby that can appeal to all levels and
types of players. I realize that hobbies evolve over time but let's
not stunt the hobby of letterboxing by throttling it with limitations.
>
> --
> ___________________________________
> California Bear


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some of them, like Canoe Portage, Snow Falls Snowflake and Wire Bridge (the only ones we've done so far) are findable and in good condition. It's always worth asking the list, especially Phyto and other local folks.

Dave
The von der Insels
P10 F206 X113 H8 E3
----- Original Message -----
From: Phyto
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Another question - missing boxes in the database


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott" wrote:
> I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
> letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
> the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find a
> letterbox relates to misreading the clues or some other hunter error.

I would not advise coming up to Maine anytime to box soon. Though some boxes are easy
to find, there are many that I have hunted for at least 5-10 times and come up empty
handed. Most times it is a clear case of not enough coffee, sleep or food. When I am
relaxed and thinking about just my surroundings, and not too much about the clue - then
it hits me like a bolt of lightning - and then you have the "Eureka moment" that many have
written about.

Sometimes it is a simple as sight-recognition. It isn't that you're stupid or that the clue is
too difficult, just that certain people who place letterboxes have certain styles. once you've
done some of those more challenging boxes, then you can pretty much consider yourself
ready for anything!!

phyto


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hear ya. I try not to get too bummed out. My sister and I found our first box together by accident out hiking with our dogs. We recruited my son to carve. My sister has lost interest, and evidently so has her dog Cody!, and my son still carves for me but he would rather hang with his new girlfriend than hike with 'ol Mom. So it's Dude my 14 year old mutt and I. Every now and then a family member will come along, or a work buddy I recently recruited. So anyone in the Philadelphia area ever looking for a boxing buddy for the day, give me a shout. Dude and I are willing to drive about a 2 hour radius for a day trip. Otherwise it's just me and the old man. It REALLY would suck if I didn't have him. I think about that alot because he really is my best friend in the whole wide world and he is a 14 year old dog....but I can't think about that right now. Happy hunting!

Hiker(s) & Hound(s)

californiabear@comcast.net wrote:
Irene - H&H wrote:

> I have lamenting my poorly named team "Hikers & Hounds" which has
> dwindled to one hiker and one hound.

Know the feeling. I started with three (myself, wife and son) and am now down to one. The only reason I carry their stamps in my box anymore is to keep mine from rattling around in all that empty space.

--
___________________________________
California Bear




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hikers and (release the) Hounds!

Your story has given me some inspiration for a new Hitchhiker in my
Dawg series. With your permission, I'm thinking of creating an "Old
Dawg" Hitchhiker. I can have it ready in time for the Washington's
Crossing event to present to you to do that LB voodoo that you do!

Lightnin' Bug of Allentown
Always looking to Box, but potentially under house arrest this
weekend!

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> I hear ya. I try not to get too bummed out. My sister and I found
our first box together by accident out hiking with our dogs. We
recruited my son to carve. My sister has lost interest, and evidently
so has her dog Cody!, and my son still carves for me but he would
rather hang with his new girlfriend than hike with 'ol Mom. So it's
Dude my 14 year old mutt and I. Every now and then a family member
will come along, or a work buddy I recently recruited. So anyone in
the Philadelphia area ever looking for a boxing buddy for the day,
give me a shout. Dude and I are willing to drive about a 2 hour
radius for a day trip. Otherwise it's just me and the old man. It
REALLY would suck if I didn't have him. I think about that alot
because he really is my best friend in the whole wide world and he is
a 14 year old dog....but I can't think about that right now. Happy
hunting!

Go for it man, you sure don't need my permission. What a great idead for a hitchhiker. I am bringing our "Hobo Phil" hitchhiker which is being mailed to England after the gathering for anyone who wants to stamp it. I think it's one of Carmen's best stamps. Plus, we hope to have our "Sailin' shoe" hitchhiker done by then, which is a tribute to another favorite band - Little Feat. And we should have 2 more boxes done to plant near the gathering site. So, we're working hard. Carmen may not hike, but he is a hell of a carver. He and his girlfriend may stop in at the gathering. I hope so because his personal stamp is really cool and no one ever gets to see it because he doesn't hunt with me.

Lightnin Bug wrote:Hikers and (release the) Hounds!

Your story has given me some inspiration for a new Hitchhiker in my
Dawg series. With your permission, I'm thinking of creating an "Old
Dawg" Hitchhiker. I can have it ready in time for the Washington's
Crossing event to present to you to do that LB voodoo that you do!

Lightnin' Bug of Allentown
Always looking to Box, but potentially under house arrest this
weekend!

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> I hear ya. I try not to get too bummed out. My sister and I found
our first box together by accident out hiking with our dogs. We
recruited my son to carve. My sister has lost interest, and evidently
so has her dog Cody!, and my son still carves for me but he would
rather hang with his new girlfriend than hike with 'ol Mom. So it's
Dude my 14 year old mutt and I. Every now and then a family member
will come along, or a work buddy I recently recruited. So anyone in
the Philadelphia area ever looking for a boxing buddy for the day,
give me a shout. Dude and I are willing to drive about a 2 hour
radius for a day trip. Otherwise it's just me and the old man. It
REALLY would suck if I didn't have him. I think about that alot
because he really is my best friend in the whole wide world and he is
a 14 year old dog....but I can't think about that right now. Happy
hunting!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with your feelings on this 200% and I may get attacked for my
next words, but that's why I am a supporter of the NewAge
letterboxing group. We can't control other people's ownership
responsibilities, but we can communicate to each other regarding our
finds and frustrations. I almost always check the list first to see
if there is an entry regarding a last found date, etc. I know that
there are those letterboxers who feel this hobby is meant to be
done "a certain way" and that I'm supposed to value the hunt more
than the find, but the truth is, everyone is different, every day is
different, and we all do this for different reasons. Sometimes it IS
the hunt, sometimes the find... depends on how I feel for the day and
what I want/need to accomplish, both mentally and physically.

A database to help keep track of a box's status becomes more and more
necessary as time goes on and more and more people drop out and
disappear.
We must value our diversity. Thanks for giving me a forum to voice my
feelings and opinions:) K*


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott"
wrote:
> Hey, I'm all for the adventure, but perhaps different from others,
> I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
> letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there in
> the first place. I presume that most times not being able to find
will
> be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.
>
> I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that are MIA but not
confirmed
> missing. Repeat -- I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that
> someone couldn't find simply because they couldn't find it. I am
> saying that clues be removed for boxes the placer confirms is no
> longer there or, in the event that the placer never responds over a
> long period of time (like a year) have a system in place to mark
the
> box so that other hunters are aware that the liklihood of it not
> being there is known.
>
> Take this fictitous example:. A letterboxer searches for it but
can't find it. They e-
> mail me, but I've stopped letterboxing, so I don't respond. Four
> more letterboxers can't find it ('cause it isn't there). They e-
mail
> me, but I don't respond. The clues remain in the LbNA database. Is
> this a problem?
>
> Situation two. Same as above, except I confirm that the box is, in
> fact, missing. The clues, however, remain in the LbNA database.
Is
>

I am in it for the HUNT (& the exercise!)- my 6-year old is in it
for the FIND. I can tell you first hand the disappointment in her
little eyes when we are not successful. I fear that too many more
unsuccessful journeys & she may lose interest (& I will get benched
if she won't come along).

It's really an issue of courtesy in my opinion. If you know your
box is unavailable or if you realize that you've simply lost
interest in the game- just post a note saying that you're done, here
are your boxes if anyone wants to maintain them & if not, go after
them at your own risk. I would not knowingly go after a box that I
knew hadn't been maintained or visited in more than a year- just my
personal opinion. When my kids are older we probably would, but
right now- not on your life!

The Family

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote:
> I agree with your feelings on this 200% and I may get attacked for
my
> next words, but that's why I am a supporter of the NewAge
> letterboxing group. We can't control other people's ownership
> responsibilities, but we can communicate to each other regarding
our
> finds and frustrations. I almost always check the list first to
see
> if there is an entry regarding a last found date, etc. I know that
> there are those letterboxers who feel this hobby is meant to be
> done "a certain way" and that I'm supposed to value the hunt more
> than the find, but the truth is, everyone is different, every day
is
> different, and we all do this for different reasons. Sometimes it
IS
> the hunt, sometimes the find... depends on how I feel for the day
and
> what I want/need to accomplish, both mentally and physically.
>
> A database to help keep track of a box's status becomes more and
more
> necessary as time goes on and more and more people drop out and
> disappear.
> We must value our diversity. Thanks for giving me a forum to voice
my
> feelings and opinions:) K*
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott" letterbox@c...>
> wrote:
> > Hey, I'm all for the adventure, but perhaps different from
others,
> > I'd be disappointed to start a quest with a specific goal (the
> > letterbox), not find it, and then learn that it was never there
in
> > the first place. I presume that most times not being able to
find
> will
> > be frustrating if 200 people hunt for a box that isn't there.
> >
> > I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that are MIA but not
> confirmed
> > missing. Repeat -- I am NOT saying remove clues for boxes that
> > someone couldn't find simply because they couldn't find it. I
am
> > saying that clues be removed for boxes the placer confirms is no
> > longer there or, in the event that the placer never responds
over a
> > long period of time (like a year) have a system in place to mark
> the
> > box so that other hunters are aware that the liklihood of it not
> > being there is known.
> >
> > Take this fictitous example:. A letterboxer searches for it but
> can't find it. They e-
> > mail me, but I've stopped letterboxing, so I don't respond.
Four
> > more letterboxers can't find it ('cause it isn't there). They e-
> mail
> > me, but I don't respond. The clues remain in the LbNA database.
Is
> > this a problem?
> >
> > Situation two. Same as above, except I confirm that the box is,
in
> > fact, missing. The clues, however, remain in the LbNA
database.
> Is
> >

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "lynnieth2003"
wrote:
> I am in it for the HUNT (& the exercise!)- my 6-year old is in it
> for the FIND. I can tell you first hand the disappointment in her
> little eyes when we are not successful. I fear that too many more
> unsuccessful journeys & she may lose interest (& I will get
benched

Not finding a letterbox is just part of the game. If the find is all
that attracts her to the hobby then look for the easy drivebys. Not
being successful at every endeavor allows the real successes to be
even more sweeter, and the difficult letterboxes are set up to be
just that--difficult and sweeter. You probably wouldn't take your 6
year old on a 5 to 10 mile hike, so you modify your searches in that
area so why not concentrate on easier finds. Why not plant one for
her?

>
> It's really an issue of courtesy in my opinion. If you know your
> box is unavailable or if you realize that you've simply lost
> interest in the game- just post a note saying that you're done,
here
> are your boxes if anyone wants to maintain them & if not, go after
> them at your own risk.

Courtesy can be a hard thing to find with some letterboxers. Most
active letterboxers keep their clue sheets up to date, but if they
are no longer planting letterboxes then they obviously have lost
interest. I would suggest that if you want to research clues, then
go to the list of Planters on the Search for boxes page after you
have found a few clue sheets and look up the name of the planter. If
they have many listed then it would be a good guess that the clues
to their boxes are good. Another alternative would be to use the
Contact the Placer function and if you do not get an answer then
pass on that letterbox. While there are data bases that list
attempts by finders and record various information about
letterboxes, most Planters really dislike them as they may not allow
input from the planter of the letterbox. You can not get really up
to date info on a letterbox from such sources as many times a
letterbox is pulled or a name is changed when unauthorised info is
found in such data bases. I believe that the Contact the Placer
function will be you only reliable tool to verify the status of a
letterbox.

Don (Not looking to flame, just inform)

Oh no flaming taken & I already do those things actually. We try to
keep our hikes within the 2 mile roundtrip range & if the clue
doesn't say how long it is I either contact the placer or don't go.
I know my kids' limits. And when we're unsuccessful we try to make
sure that our next one is at a box that has been recently found so
our chances are better. Last weekend for example we were 0 for 2 in
the morning- 1 because I just got it wrong & 1 box was missing I
believe- so in the afternoon we found a tasty box at an ice cream
place. That more than made up for the morning's disappointment! I
also tend to contact the placer if the box was placed more than a
year ago to make sure that it's still in place.

I actually haven't found the secondary databases very handy because
I'd prefer to get the info straight from the placer when possible-
for precisely the reasons you point out. And, the box we planted
was VERY easy- a drive up. Future boxes will also probably be easy
for the kids' sake & mine for maintenance. They want to help me
maintain them & that will only happen if we can get to them without
too much ado (& it will be good for other families to have
some "easy" boxes).

One way or another these things always seem to work themselves
out! :)

The Family

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
wrote:
>
> Not finding a letterbox is just part of the game. If the find is
all
> that attracts her to the hobby then look for the easy drivebys.
Not
> being successful at every endeavor allows the real successes to be
> even more sweeter, and the difficult letterboxes are set up to be
> just that--difficult and sweeter. You probably wouldn't take your
6
> year old on a 5 to 10 mile hike, so you modify your searches in
that
> area so why not concentrate on easier finds. Why not plant one for
> her?
>
> Courtesy can be a hard thing to find with some letterboxers. Most
> active letterboxers keep their clue sheets up to date, but if they
> are no longer planting letterboxes then they obviously have lost
> interest. I would suggest that if you want to research clues, then
> go to the list of Planters on the Search for boxes page after you
> have found a few clue sheets and look up the name of the planter.
If
> they have many listed then it would be a good guess that the clues
> to their boxes are good. Another alternative would be to use the
> Contact the Placer function and if you do not get an answer then
> pass on that letterbox. While there are data bases that list
> attempts by finders and record various information about
> letterboxes, most Planters really dislike them as they may not
allow
> input from the planter of the letterbox. You can not get really up
> to date info on a letterbox from such sources as many times a
> letterbox is pulled or a name is changed when unauthorised info is
> found in such data bases. I believe that the Contact the Placer
> function will be you only reliable tool to verify the status of a
> letterbox.
>
> Don (Not looking to flame, just inform)